So, in case you didn't already guess it from the title, the article below is one comparing and contrasting Margaret Mitchell's
Gone with the Wind with Louisa May Alcott's
Little Women, with a focus on their respective heroines Scarlett O'Hara and Jo March. Enjoy! (And since I suppose at least some of you must be fans of
Little Women, please feel free to tell us what you thought of this parallel.)
http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2009/07/scarlett-jo/20557/
Very interesting article :) I stumbled upon your blog about an hour ago, and I've been looking through it ever since! This is so fascinating, especially being a very big fan of Margaret Mitchell's classic novel. You never know what jewels you'll come upon - and in the strangest of places too (I found your link in the IMDB discussion board of GWTW.) Can't wait to read more of what you'll put up in the future :)
ReplyDeleteWelcome, Kirsten! We're glad that you are enjoying the blog. Happy reading! :)
ReplyDeleteArgh! Or "Welcome Kristen" I mean, not Kirsten. Sorry about that... :)
ReplyDeleteIt's okay :) I'm so happy I found a place that really dives into "Gone With the Wind." My sister and I have been huge fans of both the book and the movie since we were little (we one multiple, worn out copies,) I even signed up for a class that focused on the book for a bit! And the great thing about GWTW is that there's so many little things to love about it. After Scarlett and Rhett, I was always interested in learning about Carreen and Brent, but it seemed rare to find any GWTW discussion that focused on the other bits and pieces that went on in the novel. Keep up the great work! I feel like I hit a "Gone With the Wind" gold mine :)
ReplyDeleteThis blog rocks! I just read GWTW and have been comparing Scarlett to Jo (in my head) now as I read Little Women.
ReplyDeleteMind readers, you are! :-)
Great article guys. Really interesting!
ReplyDeleteI was never drawn to Little Women, as I was to GWTW, particularly because I find Jo so irritating. I love one person's comment that the difference was that Jo was good and Scarlett was bad. Hmmm, I don't think it's quite so black and white. And there must be something askew with my set of morals, because I don't think Scarlett was "bad". I agree with just about everything she did, except for the whole stealing Frank thing (which was almost unavoidable) and allowing the mistreatment of the convicts, and also the whole dog in manger conversation didn't need to happen. Might have had a happy ending then...
Kristen, I felt exactly the same when I first discovered this place (now I'm just waiting for my work to ban it like they did facebook!)This place is the best. Although I'd say my partner wouldn't agree, becasue these days it's all I have to talk about. I forget that other people don't really care about the colour of the ribbon trimming on Scarlett's underwear!
Kristen, I agree with you about the Carreen and Brent thing. I've often wondered, but never had anyone to talk about it too. I feel that the beauty of GWTW is that it's so many stories going on at the same time. The novel could be written a dozen times over if someone else was followed. So, what is Carreen's story?
Obviously her relationship with Brent was pretty serious stuff. She never got over his death and became a nun. That's a pretty full on decision. It seems to me the woman of that family were good at making life altering decisions at an early age.
I also wonder what Carreen looked like after she grew up a bit more. Scarlett does say that she is going to prettier than Suellen in a few years. I wonder too, about what coloured hair coloured eyes Suellen and Carreen had. I'm guessing not green. I also wonder about Suellen's married life with Will. What were the domestic arrangements att Tara?
Overall, I believe Scarlett was a good person. Did she have her fair share of faults? YES! But she has several admirable qualities. She got Tara through the ending months of the War and into Reconstruction, which probably would not have happened if she didn't have the iron will and determination. And look when Sherman's army raid Tara for the second time! She makes sure everybody is safe, and when they attempt to steal Charlie's sword, she makes it a point to take it back for Wade. She might not have been the best mom, but I thought that was one of the rare moments we see her as a mother.
ReplyDeleteAnd MM, I completely agree with you about the beauty of it. Not only is the writing so good (I ALWAYS get sucked in) but it's not one of those stories where you have to focus in on the main group. Like for me, I like the Carreen plot (probably because I can relate to her) and life in Clayton County after Sherman's army burns through/Reconstruction. What goes on in Fairhill? What about the Fontaines and courageous Sally? GWTW makes you wonder about so many things. I don't recognize "Scarlett" or "RBP" as sequels to the book (not only because I just can''t stand them, but for me, a sequel can't really be a sequel unless the author herself writes it, or gives permission to someone to do it - something Mitchell herself didn't do) but if her estate were to continue to allow sequels/prequels to be released, they should focus on what doesn't go around Rhett or Scarlett.
With Carreen and Brent, I personally like to think (yes, I'm quite the romantic) that they had a relationship more serious and deep than Scarlett cared to realize. Maybe Stu actually fell in love with Scarlett (or he's just the more hot-tempered of the pair) but at least in Brent's case, I've seen it as a teenage boy finding a girl super hot. And after being injured in the war, Brent comes to his senses, and finally notices Carreen. If they got engaged, I just can't see it as Brent settling for Carreen because he couldn't have Scarlett. Now, with Stu, I can see him settling for India.
ReplyDeleteThe O'Hara girls certainly have Ellen in them. Scarlett, because of her love for Ashley parallels Ellen's love for Philippe (a love that drives her into marrying Gerald.) Carreen, who was deeply in love with a boy with reckless tendencies, and upon his death, considers (and goes) into the convent. And with Suellen...probably her and Mr. Kennedy's relationship (which reflects Gerald and Ellen.)
I've always seen Carreen looking alot like Ann Rutherford (but with blonde hair...they mention in the book she has fair hair, and Gerald's blue eyes.) And while I'm sure Suellen must have been pretty, I actually thought her to be the plainest of the three...probably more horse-like (they mention her bridling) and slightly taller than her sisters. I'm guessing she also has blonde hair and blue eyes. If either Carren or Suellen had those green eyes, I'm sure there wouldn't be so much a big-to-do about Scarlett's.
Keep in mind, Will and Suellen married because her marriage prospects were ruined, and it allowed Will to stay on at Tara. Not to mention, he loved Carreen. So, I don't think romantic love could grow between Sue and Will. I think Suellen just wanted to be a wife, do wifely and ladylike things that Ellen taught her; Will does the manly work, and clearly wears the pants in the relationship. I'm sure he lets Suellen indulge in having her parties and visiting friends, but I cannot see their relationship anything like Scarlett's and Charlie's or Scarlett's and Frank's.
While the Tarleton twins are my favorite (especially Brent,) what about Charlie? We read the book from Scarlett's perspective, so I think his looks and mannerisms might have been over-exagerated. But his sweet, shy, bookish nature is so...well, sweet. But I wish Margaret Mitchell hadn't killed both the twins! Not only because I love them (well, mostly Brent) but personally, I think it would have been interesting to see one or both of them grow up in Reconstruction, to learn to deal with their war-torn world.
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ReplyDeleteI think you should get a room with brent tarleton! Somehow I can't avoid seeing Suellen as the one who got the best deal. Scarlett paid for the upkeep of the place. Suellen got a young virile husband (despite only having one leg), but she got to live in Tara and have a family there and put on airs and not have to have a skungy old husband like frank. i agree, scarlett did her a favour.
ReplyDeleteReally? I didn't imagine either as being fair haired.... I certainly don't remember such a description... I will have to scour my sources (not that there are many, being a one novel show...)I assumed all three girls were dark haired and one had blue eyes and one had brown, like their parents and I never thought Suellen was truly unattractive, like Scarlett said...
Aw, we're definitely feeling the love today! We really appreciate you guys for reading and supporting us and for the interesting topics of discussion you find. In real life I am more of a closet fan, so it's so nice to have someone to discuss GWTW with in detail (down to the colour of the ribbon trimming on Scarlett's underwear, LOL).
ReplyDelete@Kristen. Welcome. Was the GWTW class any good?
@Jillian. I knew you'd enjoy this particular parallel. I would very much like to read your own take on this, if/when you have any time/desire to compare these two books.
@MM. I am not the greatest fan of Little Women either. I mean, I appreciate it, but it's just not among my favorite books. And overall, I agree with your assessment. I don't find Scarlett a bad person, despite all her faults.
About Carreen and Suellen
ReplyDeleteI don't know about their physical appearance. I don't remember any specific mention of Carreen's hair color either, so if one of you finds it, I would be very happy to see it. I think perhaps a suggestion that at least Suellen skin tone is a little different from Scarlett's is the conversation about the dresses they have the night before the barbecue, when Suellen claims she doesn't look good in pink while Scarlett does (though that could just be Suellen lying to get the dress she wants). I do agree that their eyes couldn't have been green.
Kristen, your observation about the three girls paralleling Ellen's own experience is so true. I always liked that little foreshadowing in the first chapters of the book when Carreen is reading a book about a girl who becomes a nun after her lover's death. And also the fact that the convent was Ellen's first choice too after Phillipe's death. I think Carreen is the closest to Ellen from the three sisters.
With Brent it could have gone either way. I am not against the idea of them having deep feelings for each other, but considering how easily the women in this family obsess over men, their romance could have easily been more shallow too. I would have really liked to see the twins in the post-war world. I can imagine them braving it all with energy and humor. I love the Tarleton family and the fact that they pull through in the end.
As for Suellen, I don't think she was happy. One issue (and it would have been an issue for her) was that Will was a Cracker, so her social standard diminished. Also, Tara as we're told was more a farm than a plantation and she probably had to work more than she would have if she became Frank Kennedy's wife and moved to Atlanta. Plus that after Gerald's death, she was a social outcast in the County. I think that like Scarlett with Rhett, Suellen got a better deal than she realized with Will, but she couldn't enjoy it b/c she didn't get what she wanted.
I don't know whether Frank and Suellen would have been happy with each other. Rhett says no, during the proposal scene. What do you guys think?
They don't even mention Suellen's looks in the novel (besides Scarlett's complaints and insults,) I was inferring they were both of the same hair/eye color because it seems like Scarlett is such a commodity. And it's like once in a passing mention, Mitchell mentions Carreen's hair color. I think it's when Will wakes up and sees Carreen praying nearby, and the sunshine's on her fair hair. And when I read "fair" I think blonde.
ReplyDeleteWell, also too, alot goes on in Scarlett's head - she fantasizes or comes up with scenarios (particularly with Ashley, but you see her do it with thinking Melly would be catty enough to mention a grease stain or Suellen marrying Frank and leaving Tara to rot) - so what we read, maybe biased a little bit. I don't think Suellen was all that plain (although, I still think she would be considered the last pick, in regards to looks) but it makes you wonder because she stuck with Mr. Kennedy almost all her early life. And I don't think Suellen was all that mean. Do I like her? Not really. But I think she was nicer than Scarlett thought. She and her sister seemed pretty close, and everybody loved the younger O'Hara girls. And I don't think what she did to Gerald was out of malicious intent (although what she did was very, very wrong)...maybe Scarlett just recognized a little bit of herself in Suellen. Maybe Suellen got the best deal, but it came with a price - being chewed out by the people she knew and loved (and marrying beneath her station.) I don't see the neighbors forgiving her anytime soon. Or maybe Carreen, in the end, got the best deal. Sure, the love of her life died in a blaze of glory, but she took comfort in helping those in need and praying...going to the convent, perhaps, was the thing to keep her at peace. Haha, I do adore Brent, but he belongs with Carreen xD
Bugsie, yes the class was brilliant! My teacher was amazing - he's a really big fan too. We got into major discussions about Scarlett vs. Melanie, Ashley vs. Rhett (personally, Ashley's the bigger jerk!) and if Scarlett was actually a good person or not. I think Frank and Suellen would have been happier than Scarlett and Frank. Sure, Suellen didn't reciprocate the strong feelings he had for her, but she adored the attention he gave her, he was an upstanding citizen, and at least she wouldn't have unmanned him as Scarlett did. I think their relationship would have been like Gerald's and Ellen's.
ReplyDeleteI could see Brent not being totally serious about it, but I'm a romantic and an optimist (a deadly combination, to be sure) so I'd like ot think he loved her back. I always saw Brent as the more milder of the twins...like, he could go into a relationship if he wanted to. Stu just struck me as more hot-headed, more wild.
Interesting article, though I personally don't think that a couple of similar instances are enough to draw a parallel between Jo and Scarlett as characters. But I loved the author's comments on Scarlett and her personality, especially this: "(...) the fact that Scarlett's mother taught her nothing whatsoever about work makes her incredibly angry, and is one of the main reasons she ends up rejecting her mother's entire set of values, throwing out a lot of good things in the process." Right on target!
ReplyDeleteAlso, nice discussion here :)
V.
Yes, great point V. I was particularly impressed by that line too.
ReplyDeleteI love all these discussions! Yes Kristen, I found the reference to her fair hair. But not blue eyes. Do you know where that one is? It's more common for blonds to have blue eyes, so that's how I'll imagine her. And that way, she can be the blue sister, as Scarlett is the green sister. Yes Bugsie, really the only hint we have as to Suellen's appearance is the whole pink dress-green dress exchange. Yes, it does seem as though she would have a differing complection from Scarlett. The outcome of that discussion was not that pink didn't suit her, but it did. Ellen says that pink is suited to her complection as green is to Scarlett's. We can fairly safely assume that Ellen was a pillar of style and what colours worked, though I believe she generally dressed in black herself. So what type of complection looks good in pink? I myself never wear pink or red because I have a pink-hued complection and the colours make me look sunburnt! I'm assuming Suellen had dark hair and eyes like her mother and was the pink sister.
I wonder what colours Ellen wore as a girl?
Hmmm, you're right, it's not very like Suellen to be happy with her lot (maybe she and Scarlett are more similar than you'd imagine). I just feel that despite Will's low background, he is a good man and admits to Scarlett that he is fond of her. He gives Suellen the only thing she'd been bred for - an opportunity to do some more breeding inside of wedlock!
We know Suellen liked to put on airs and was lazy. So is the scene presented in that Scarlett mini series of a pregnant Suellen plucking chickens in rags very accurate? Do you really think Suellen would ever embrace plucking chickens? And they must have had some servants left, Scarlett didn't take them all did she? Big Sam was still at Tara and he probably married and had children. Did anyone else notice that Dilcey's baby boy just disappears from the novel? What's with that?
Actually, I feel that maybe Rhett was wrong. Suellen would've been a perfect wife for Frank. I know Scarlett has an over-developed sense of family, but surely Suellen wasn't so selfish that she would go and leave them all to fend for themselves in the road? But we know she didn't care about Tara like Scarlett, so I'd say the money would've been spent on new clothes, Tara would've been bought at the Sherrif's sale, the entire O'Hara family would move to Atlanta to live with the new Kennedy's and Scarlett and the Wilkes' would've gone to Aunt Pitty's, because I'm sure she wouldn't want anything more to do with Suellen. I'm sure Scarlett was an Earth sign - Capricorn, Virgo or Taurus.
She could be an earth sign, but she could easily fit into being a Scorpio. Being a Scorpio myself, there are certain traits that I think would be right up her alley. And as to Carreen's blue eyes, I just imagined her with them...sorry for not clarifying. I think Carreen had the pink complexion if I'm not mistaken, which leads me to believe that Suellen might have been just a shade darker than Scarlett's magnolia white skin.
ReplyDeleteRhett may have just said that to comfort her. Obviously, she was upset, and afraid to go to hell because she stole Frank.
The commonality I see between GWTW and Little Women is how much Scarlett and Jo mirror their creators. It would be tremendously amusing to imagine Scarlett and Jo meeting up in some parallel literary universe (or a strange crossover fanfic where they all have tea at Aunt March's house). Suellen and Amy might get along famously!
ReplyDelete@Kristen-Welcome. Thanks for all the great observations about GWTW and the O'Hara sisters.
By the way, how does one find the GWTW discussion board on IMDB? If you and Rita are regulars there, the discussions must be great!
No problem :) I'm only glad I can share them with people who wouldn't think I was a nutter! I don't have an account at IMDB, so I don't have access to any of the boards, so I look through topics that interest me and see how our opinions compare. There was a topic about a GWTW blog, I clicked it, and it led me to here. I wish I knew how to post there though! So, technically I'm a regular...but more like a regular lurker, because I have no clue how one goes about posting in the IMDB boards.
ReplyDeleteOf course Scorpio makes sense, as Margaret Mitchell was herself one. I imagine that she would've modelled Scarlett after herself in that regard. I read somewhere that Gone with the Wind was actually an astrological novel and MM created the characters as stereotypes of their Zodiac signs. To be honest, I'm Capricorn, and as much as I would love to share the same star sign with Scarlett, I don't think she exhibits the traits - a conservative, serious, non-risk taker. Fire suits her better, nice parrallel with her name too. The name Scarlett just makes so much sense. I think there's more to it than just deciding Pansy wasn't strong enough and finding the name in text. I think the fates were at work.
ReplyDeleteFunny that Vivien Leigh was also a Scorpio. Perhaps why she gave such a brilliant performance...
We know that Ashley's birthday was in April, making him Aries or Taurus, which I really don't see. Maybe the moon was in a wimpy, good for nothing phase.
Oh, I could definitely see Ashley as a Taurus. Tauruses are patient, reliable, loving, placid, security seekers who can be self-indulgent. I see that in Ashley. No matter his talk of honor and what-not, he always gives in to Scarlett and he resents Rhett for touching her.
ReplyDeleteScorpios rule! I remember I was ecstatic when I found out both Vivien and Grace Kelly were Scorpios.
Also, Pansy just seemed like a paradoxical name for strong Scarlett. Pansy seems more like a name for Suellen or Pitty. Whenever I hear the name "Pansy" I think of the Harry Potter character, so seemingly smitten with Draco Malfoy. I always wondered if she was like Scarlett.
@iris- LOL at Scarlett and Jo meeting somehow. I would enjoy that immensely, should someone ever write it.
ReplyDelete@MM and Kristen re: Scarlett's astrological sign- My first instinct was to say "oh Scarlett's definitely a fire sign, probably a Leo." But I do think you are on to something with the Scorpio assessment. There's a description of the sign's characteristics below that, to me at least, basically reads as "Hello, my name is Katie Scarlett O'Hara." :)
http://www.psychicguild.com/horoscopes_zodiac.php?sign=Scorpio
@everyone- I want to reiterate what Bugsie said earlier and say thanks for all the wonderful discussion today and the many kind words about the blog. It is so wonderful to have such great readers like you all- you make the blog for us!
Old comments will be back in a while. Check out this post for more details: http://gwtwscrapbook.blogspot.com/2010/09/day-when-bugsie-killed-comments.html
ReplyDeleteThe commonality I see between GWTW and Little Women is how much Scarlett and Jo mirror their creators. It would be tremendously amusing to imagine Scarlett and Jo meeting up in some parallel literary universe (or a strange crossover fanfic where they all have tea at Aunt March's house). Suellen and Amy might get along famously!
ReplyDelete@Kristen-Welcome. Thanks for all the great observations about GWTW and the O'Hara sisters.
By the way, how does one find the GWTW discussion board on IMDB? If you and Rita are regulars there, the discussions must be great!
I wonder if BOTH Scarlett and Rhett are Scorpios. I use this sight in regards to astrology (link below) and it could also read Rhett to me as well. I mean, he loves the truth and hates being taken advantage of...a trait of Scorpios. And I remember reading somewhere that two Scorpios have a very fiery and stormy connection because they're so similar.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.astrology-online.com/scorpio.htm
I wonder what sign Melanie would be...Pisces?
Hmmm, that description matches him to a tee and the other description matches Scarlett to a tee, however I'm going to have to put a spanner in the works Kristen. I was just doing research on an article I'm writing about opals, when I put a few things together in my mind and I'm now convinced that Scarlett was an Aries and born in late March, not April. When I said MM would've written the character with the same Zodiac, maybe that's necessarily so. Scarlett and MM parallel each other in many ways, but are different in so many, eg MM actually had a sense of humour. Maybe she just wanted the character to bear the same element. Look at Scarlett's obsession with the colour green. What does green symbolise? Growth and new beginnings: Spring. March is the first month out of winter and MM carries on a great deal in the first chapter (written last and laden with detail to tie things together) about the Spring. "Spring had come early that year." Perhaps these are hints. The birth stone of March is aquamarine or bloodstone and they both represent courage. Hmmm, green and red... the two colours of Scarlett's pallette. In the Bazaar scene MM Scarlett thinks of her "precious earrings". At the end of the novel when Scarlett realises her love for Ashley would have faded as soon as she got him, she draws a parallel with the aquamarine earrings Gerald bought her. I think gemstones are hints about the characters. Also, the reason I believe she is not an April Aries is that the stone of that month is diamond, which symbolises innocence. Ha! Also her dress and shoes are described as new. Perhaps they were birthday presents... Ellen's garnets would put her in January, and I can definetely see her as a Capricorn. I'm really only familiar with the Zodiacs of myself, family and friends, so my guess for Melanie would be Virgo. My brother is a Taurus and after yesterday's post, I can see a lot of similarities between them. And Ashley did love Twelve Oaks, as a Taurean, perhaps when it was gone forever this is why he was left somewhat of a shell.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I am not too much into signs and all, but I always wondered when Scarlett was born. So going with your theories, she could either be born in October/November 1844 or March/April 1845, if she's 16 in 1861. In the autumn of 1873 she says she's 28. It's not absolutely necessary, but I personally think that this works better if she's born in spring, so she turned 28 in the spring of 1873, as opposed to her 29th birthday having passed already/being right around the corner at the time when she says she's 28.
ReplyDeleteDon't you know it! I'm not MM for no reason...
ReplyDelete